Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!

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8 years 7 months ago - 8 years 7 months ago #131103 by barnettgs
To be honest, while Amiga SWOS is a great game, it is getting very long in the tooth.

The technologies (including CPU/GPU designs) have changed a lot over the past 20 years and like many other new retro games in development including Dino s kick-off so it s very obvious that a new SWOS has to be created from ground up, no doubt about that. Let alone making it playable in 3 platforms - PC, PS4 and Xbox One.

I have to say that given a very short development time, the team seemed to be very talented and doing very well with this game. I don t know what were you expecting from this new game as you seemed to be willing to put it down? I thought it looked great especially the gameplay at the early stage.

From Jon s interview, you can see that Xbox 360 version Sensible Soccer 2006 was a rushed product and that Codemaster wasn t giving him any chance to fix the bugs. Still, Jon is now on his own with his team to do this game in freedom and does what he pleases. After all, he created sensible soccer and who are we argue with? :)
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8 years 7 months ago #131104 by lemonheadiv

To be honest, while Amiga SWOS is a great game, it is getting very long in the tooth.

The technologies (including CPU/GPU designs) have changed a lot over the past 20 years and like many other new retro games in development including Dino s kick-off so it s very obvious that a new SWOS has to be created from ground up, no doubt about that. Let alone making it playable in 3 platforms - PC, PS4 and Xbox One.


I disagree, I don t find it outdated at all.
Also, the advancements in technologies have nothing to do with the possibility of taking the original source code and build a proper (that is with the same Amiga gameplay) remake on it. The 20th Anniversary Edition of Another World is a good example of what I would do with SWOS: store.steampowered.com/app/233550/
The problem of course is that Codemasters have the license and they re just sitting on it, having no interest in doing anything with it.

So this would leave Jon with no other option than reinventing the wheel from scratch. Anyway it s clear that his idea is to create a brand new game rather than a new version of SWOS, which is fine. It doesn t mean that he will fail but sure it will be tough for him and his team to match the quality of Amiga SWOS. A lot will also depend on post launch support which hopefully won t be Codemasters-like (remember what happened with Sensible Soccer 2006 which had some potential but was abandoned after that rushed release).
I think I can understand Jon s point of view and his will to move on and it s not my intention to put down his new effort. As I wrote, we have to keep in mind that we ve just seen an early prototype. I personally would have preferred a 2d look but then again, it s too early to judge and the graphics are probably more of a placeholder.

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8 years 7 months ago #131105 by higgipoker


I disagree, I don t find it outdated at all.
Also, the advancements in technologies have nothing to do with the possibility of taking the original source code and build a proper (that is with the same Amiga gameplay) remake on it...


I m with you on this... even the graphics and sound stand up today as retro style pixel art. People love that shit. Imagine if 80% of the development effort was going into online play and improvements to career mode (realistic activity in the transfer market etc.)

As a developer myself, the only issue I can think of regarding his comment about CPU/GPU designs is that it would be impossible to do a direct port of the Amiga code. For example, features like the aftertouch are almost certainly implemented on a frame basis (eg joystick polled every frame, for 10 frames after a shot), within a frame based game loop.

This was fine in a gaming console like the Amiga where you were guaranteed the same frame time on every single Amiga, but this method just would not hold up today. This, I strongly suspect, is the reason behind the differences in gameplay/ball physics on the different versions. It s not possible to simply port the Amiga source code to a new platform and get the same results.

Don t get me wrong, Hare has earned our support, but this is a completely new game he s making and it will look and feel nothing like Sensible Soccer. Those holding out for a new SWOS will be disappointed.

Let s hope they are savy enough to realize the importance of making the data easily editable so that the community can update the game with real teams/players/competitions.
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8 years 7 months ago - 8 years 7 months ago #131106 by steviebwoy78
I think we have to remember that the footage shown in the video is just alpha gameplay. There s another 12 months of development to unfold before it s ready.

The main concern I have with the game is the whole emphasis on multiplayer that really comes across on the KS page and Jon s video. It s all about avatars, clans and online characters. I fear that Jon may have missed the point here. Yes, it s great to have this *in addition* to single player, but SWOS was predominantly about the single player experience, and it s that that people remember fondly from SWOS. It was about taking a lowly team and building them up to be a European giant.

None of this comes across in the KS campaign currently. Jon made it pretty clear in the Eurogamer interview that single player and the offline trophies are a big part of this game, but calling it Sociable Soccer and focusing the KS page on avatars and clans just makes it sound (as someone said on the KS comments) like a Facebook game. This is the wrong message imho and I fear, that even if Jon updates the KS page, he may have already missed out on a huge chunk of investment and publicity by focusing on the wrong elements of what made previous titles so good.

Just my thoughts and, of course, I wish Jon and his team all the luck in the world. This is just the start of what could be an amazing new franchise. Just.. maybe think about changing the name hey Jon?
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8 years 7 months ago #131107 by steviebwoy78
From Twitter:

We ll be updating our @kickstarter page today with more info about single player and some delicious development documents!

Source:
Invalid consumer key/secret in configuration
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8 years 7 months ago #131108 by Coolio_Jack
I really can t imagine why would anyone who plays swos be interested in playing something like this while swos is still there. Also, not like it would make it worth playing, but they should get rid of that effect that ball leaves.

I guess for people who like gaming in general this might be interesting, but it s nothing that should be exciting and worth of discussing here. Unless one day someone can take over the old gameplay source code, they should stop mentioning swos in any kind of sense, even as a spiritual successor or whatever.
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8 years 7 months ago - 8 years 7 months ago #131109 by Playaveli

It s not possible to simply port the Amiga source code to a new platform and get the same results.


That s just not true. XBLA SWOS is a straight port of Amiga SWOS with PC frame rate, working 100% accurate on modern platform (Xbox).
Enhanced graphic mode is very nice (except some unfinished goal shadows), you can even zoom the pitch without a change in camera angle.
For a good developer / coder it would be a child s play to add some new features to the game from that point on (atmospheric sound, commentary, new game options etc).

But since we don t have that, well... let s hope Jon s new approach goes well.
And Jon is on the right track on a lot of things, like focussing first on gameplay and a fast working multiplayer mode.


@Lemon: Well said! I agree with you, totally!

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8 years 7 months ago #131110 by steviebwoy78
I think the problem is that we ve no chance of anyone getting hold of the source code for SWOS. It s also pretty obvious that Codemasters aren t going to do anything with the game. It s super frustrating.

With that in mind, I guess Jon s only option is to try and recreate the game (or something that recaptures the magic). I dislike the talk of clans and avatars, but that s just me.

I wish him well with this project, keeping it mind that this is potentially just the first installment. We can t expect to have the depth of SWOS at this point.

Just get the game running well, make it fun online and offline, and then build from there. I don t see the need for all this clan and avatar stuff but it seems to be quite important to Jon.

I have my doubts about whether Jon can capture the old magic with a new team, but I m hopeful and very much prepared to wait and see.

I ve backed the project, and would encourage the whole community to do the same - not necessarily solely based on what we ve seen on the Kickstarter page, but based on what this series could become in the future.
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8 years 7 months ago #131111 by higgipoker

That s just not true. XBLA SWOS is a straight port of Amiga SWOS with PC frame rate...


Interesting! Do you know for a fact that it is a straight port of the Amiga code? People complain that the PC version, for example, didn t have the same feeling to the ball physics, did the XBOX version fix this problem?

I would be very surprised if they converted the 68020 asm straight to the Xenon. The issue is not the frame rate, it s the frame based processing. To get the same feeling across different platforms and environments you would have to convert to a time based game loop. This is not trivial. It affects not only the smoothness of the graphics, but also the physics and controls of the game due to the variable time steps. A lot of hardware specific tricks and optimizations were utilized in most Amiga games to squeeze the most out of each frame.

It is possible, of course, that the original Amiga game was implemented with a time based game loop, though I highly doubt it.

Anyway, would be interested in the info you have regarding this!

Cheers.
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8 years 7 months ago - 8 years 7 months ago #131112 by Playaveli

That s just not true. XBLA SWOS is a straight port of Amiga SWOS with PC frame rate...


Interesting! Do you know for a fact that it is a straight port of the Amiga code? People complain that the PC version, for example, didn t have the same feeling to the ball physics, did the XBOX version fix this problem?

I would be very surprised if they converted the 68020 asm straight to the Xenon. The issue is not the frame rate, it s the frame based processing. To get the same feeling across different platforms and environments you would have to convert to a time based game loop. This is not trivial. It affects not only the smoothness of the graphics, but also the physics and controls of the game due to the variable time steps. A lot of hardware specific tricks and optimizations were utilized in most Amiga games to squeeze the most out of each frame.

It is possible, of course, that the original Amiga game was implemented with a time based game loop, though I highly doubt it.

Anyway, would be interested in the info you have regarding this!

Cheers.


www.eurogamer.net/articles/sensible-worl...t-impressions?page=2

Eurogamer: Did the recent Xbox/PS2 version influence what you left in/added to the original, core game?

Jon Hare: No not at all; this is a straight port, probably what we should have done in the first place.



XBLA has the exact Amiga physic feeling! It just looks smoother (60z), just as the PC version of SWOS does.
And the goalkeepers are sort of a PC/Amiga mix.
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