Re: OOO, Leagues and Tournaments

My thoughts:

Ten no fake members are knowing you, and they mark you as no fake

Define knowing cause you gotta think about the implications.

If playing with someone is enough to know them , then the person who makes a fake account could just sign up to a league, play 10 different opponents, ask them to mark him as not fake and he d be set.

On the other hand, there s people who basically never post on forums, barely talk on chat, only play for 4~5 months and then leave for a while and thus never really get to know anybody (the way, for instance, Rock and I know each other due to the frequent chatting/talking on Euroleague forums) outside of the HF GG thing during matches, yet are actual, real players, how are you going to tell whether they re fake or not if there s no one who can truly verify them?

Just find the fake account with IP checks or something, delete them and ban the player who s made it. It d be more practical (less hassle for the real players, who are the majority) and less exploitable imho.

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Don t really get the multiple rankings thing either: I mean, if it s just a convoluted way of sorting the existing data then fine but if the SRN s collected against people from your own country won t show up in the international ranking and viceversa then uh, dunno about that.

The current World Ranking should be kept, unchanged, then you can add as many optional rankings as you see fit as curiosity/interesting statistics (it d be pretty cool actually, good idea).

Unfortunately, lag is generally better when you play people from your own country and we certainly can t force users to play against opponents from other nations who either got abysmal connections or are simply too far away (mind you, this is coming from someone who rarely ever plays people from his own country as I play Euroleague instead of Serie A and was active in ASL til August or so) if they don t feel like it. Thus, if someone decides to avoid international tournaments you can t really blame them and they surely still deserve to be in the Ranking.

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Also, if I may suggest for future reference, the Elo-ranking system is cool, 100% fair and I like it, however there s not nearly enough rewards for people s placement in competitions such as top national leagues and ISSF European Cups.

Players placement in big competitions should matter a whole lot more than single matches outcome within the said competitions (especially in tournaments that entail KO rounds with 2 legs per round)...these ain t just your run-of-the-mill Sunday Cup #38 that exists for the sole purpose of creating an occasion to play more OOO s...they are the most important online tournaments along with Super ASL, thus, bonus should definitely be BIGGER, otherwise people just won t find them worthwhile (turnouts in european cups have been pretty low for a while now for a reason).

EDIT: Edited the ELO

First: I am quite a new member, read it as a noobie s opinion:

I think it is not necessary. Not because it can not happen. Nor because it is not an annoying thing. But I think the most part of the community is real. So lets make a balance:
In one hand the fake accounts, with the disturbance they made. (I dont think it is too much.)
On the other hand what barriers and duties would be such a system for all the real players.

So I think (now, with my actual knowledge) that the first hand is not empty, but not a big problem either, so let s not make a bigger problem for the real ones, neither.

Anyway: If there are possibilities to avoid the problem, or make the faking harder, without side effects for the real people, do it! But till the problem doesn t rise bigger, do not suffer more from treatment than from the threat!

(A small thing: Elo rating system is not ELO, because it is not an abbreviation, it is from the developer s name: Árpád Élő. So it is actually Élő-system, or Elo system, because of the lack of accents )

I d like to say my opinion, I know I am not an active player, I hope that s not a problem...if it is, just let me know.
I am not a fan of rankings in general, but if it must be ranking , I would like to say that different rankings would be an improvement if the goal is to show the real value of players.
Let s consider first there s no way to compare two different national leagues. I had the luck to play with Lucaa83 , Manuelll, Sasy, Lemon in a lot of serie A seasons and we know they are all great players, so starting from this as example, the result of a balanced serie A would mean less points for them in an international ranking where maybe in a different league someone played 4x with 10 new players won all games and got a lot of points ( THAT MEANS you can t really compare the level of the two leagues and players and DOESN T MEAN Italy rocks , other nations suck) Also, in my opinion it s really wrong that a single lost game can ruin your ranking way more than winning a league could improve it. Ranking system should be based on achievements so, if you won ASL this month you re definitely the best best player this month, no matter how many draws or losses; an expiring ranking , let s say like professional tennis, would make more sense.
I am not a fan of OOOs because one can climb the ranking without achieving anything and avoiding to play against the good players...and it s wrong to include a single game result (maybe played half-asleep) in a career (that means, when it really counts). I know a reason can be a dynamic ranking makes people play, but we should ask ourselves if the ranking is the to show real values or just there to make people play more...(like love for the game is not enough to play swos).
If I am off-topic, please delete this post.
For those who didn t read and think : well, but coolio is n.1 , how can this ranking be so wrong?
If this ranking would show real value , he would be unreachable...

maybe in a different league someone played 4x with 10 new players won all games and got a lot of points.

The SRN system working totally not like this! Let s say there is a quite good player, but one of the bests, with 2000 SRN. If he plays 4 times with a brand new player he will get 5 SRN form the first match, and 4-4-4 form the 2nd-4th. So 17 SRN total. If he only play this type of matches, and do this 10 times, which is quite an extreme thing, he will get 170 SRN after all matches. Not too mutch! (I used OOO SRN-s)

And do not forget:
- What if any of the new player can play a draw, or even win! With a draw he would lose about 21 SRN, and win just 5+4+4=13, so lose 8! With 4 draw from 40 matches, he will get only 80 SRN total, and with one loss, it will be less than half of that. In reality you can get free points from new player if there real SRN is below 1000 (it is likely, but not sure) and just as many as they are wore. If they real strength is 900 for example, the free SRN is below 1 point per match!
- It is not very likely that in a new league you will always play new opponents, as many as 10. And if it happens, not twice in the next month.
- And if it is finally succeed, and he played 40 matches with very weak (about 500 SRN for example) new players, and he harvest all the 170 SRN, he will face some times a real player. No matter that his opponent is with 900-1300-1800-2100-2500 or any SRN, he will lose more, and gain less SRN because of his unreal SRN s. So if he play some real games, the free SRN from new players will dissolve between all players.

I am not a fan of OOOs because one can climb the ranking without achieving anything and avoiding to play against the good players...

From the same reason one s climbing is limited, and very hard. You can only climb high if you are absolutely constant winner against week and mid-strengths opponents, and never have even draws, never lose. (Or if beat some stronger ones - another method.) And if you can do it constantly, never makd mistakes, have bad matches, goalles ones, you are a very good player, deserve a good spot on the ranking. There is know easy way to the top. (Or just with very significant quantity of cheating.)

In one thing you are right: If a subset of players never or very-very-very rarely plays with others, their SRN will be peel away from the other s, and wont be real. But it needs that any player from the subsent never playing with others not from the subset.

Thanks for your reply, but my point in your first quote was : you can t compare leagues, so a great player in a balanced league may win less points (= lower in ranking) than a good or average one in an unbalanced league , that s all, it was not : SRN sucks.

For the second part, in a ranking where people can be n.1 or n.2 without even playing ASL (in some cases even not playing leagues at all)... please tell me what we are talking about, because I am pretty sure we re talking about different things.

a great player in a balanced league may win less points (= lower in ranking) than a good or average one in an unbalanced league

I just wanted to point out that consider the gained amount of SRN not just the probability. The substance of SRN is that you get just few SRN winning against a weak player, but get many if you win against a good.

So a great player in a balanced league would win not so many matches, but get many points from them, and if he lose won t lose so many. And a good/avarage player in an unbalanced league will win maybe more matches, but if he wins against weaker wont get so many SRN and in case of losing will lose many. This what SRN is about.

So, Why a great player in a balanced league may win less points (= lower in ranking) than a good or average one in an unbalanced league? It can happened, but not in absolute numbers. (And from 2500- 2600 SRN is incomparable with 1700- 1900 SRN).

(mt653: My problem is that my English is not good enough to make it clear: no offense or anything like this. I just think that SRN is a very bright thing, and try to explain why. There are some mathematical problems with SRN system: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system altough Elo not equal SRN)

One type of solution might be to give more bonus SRN based on league champ. (or runner-up, bronze). But it can be a new type of problem: to rank the leagues...

I used may, because it can be...and that s enough for me; I repeat myself, my post was more about the impossibility to compare two national leagues and their players and was not about how to calculate points and stuff (that is a very interesting subject). So my opinion is to keep national rankings separated in order to have a real international (and more reliable) ranking (and also giving more importance to national leagues as well) hopefully based more on achievements more than result of single games... how to do that? Ah, that s off-topic...