Re: *** Call to Action: New Sensible Soccer Game ***

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4 years 11 months ago #130378 by steviebwoy78
Replied by steviebwoy78 on topic Re: *** Call to Action: New Sensible Soccer Game ***
@Playa/Redhair - I'm not sure of your reservations about Kickstarter to be completely honest - how is Kickstarter legally a pain in the arse? I've seen (and have backed) so many projects on Kickstarter that have done well, and have delivered on their promises. I don't see why it's problematic for a developer to choose this path - look at the likes of Double Fine - a huge percentage of their way is funded in this way, and they are far from being the only ones. I can see what you're saying about pressure and expectations but that's exactly the same situation if you sign with a publisher.

I guess the case of SS06 is purely objective; for what it was, I thought it was a great football game. Even without the "Sensible" name I would've enjoyed it. You're right, it was nothing like the original game, but I still think it was a good "Jon Hare" football game.

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4 years 11 months ago - 4 years 11 months ago #130379 by DoTa
Actually we dont need a new game. Its allways the same problem till 1997 (for me), SWOS needed just a multiplayer.

Imho sensi2006 and swos on xlba failed hardly to this. Thats why i was looking for alternatives and hope they will create this one earlier than this site, but they didnt (yoda and andreas championship soccer - failed there). Atm i think emulators with the fast internet will it make possible to play this awesome game soon really stable on multiplayer.

And another name for sensi wont recollect much money. I hope the damage for the last two, three actually, versions of sensible didnt destroy to much image of this game. Another problem to collect that much money afterwards is also that u are not allowed nowadays to use real player/clubnames and thats aweful. And again it will be to late, u have to finish the game before a world or europeancup to reach enough people also non gamers. If he starts at France 2016 it could be finish for russia 2018, what is actually not bad :). There should be possibility to recollect the money (GAZPROM or other big companies). :)

Another possibility to do it as League of Legends or before them, who collect enough money with a free 2 play game, hattrick.org. So u need just swos 96/97 to get work on multiple platforms and get paid for designer works, as f.ex. skins, goal celebrations, stadium view, pitches, refrees etc.

Or cooparate with footballmanager or with sport magazines.

And Jon promise me, that u wont forget multiplayer and good goalkeeping, if u will do a new football game.
Ill support u and wish u luck. 
If u need help, u are welcome :).


*ill edit this post later, that it will become more readable :) *

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4 years 11 months ago #130383 by Playaveli

How about rewriting the original code instead? I mean something like Cannonball, which is a rewrite of Out Run in C++: github.com/djyt/cannonball/wiki/Cannonball-Manual
This way we could have a proper version SWOS, eventually with a few enhancements such as online play (if that's possible) and widescreen, for modern systems. Even without any enhancement to the original game it would be like playing on Amiga, without any lag introduced by emulation.


This is in the making, by Zlatko Karakas (check PC forum, about online play).
Means: Perhaps we don't have to worry about money and Codemasters, at all.


I read about that and that's great but you're talking about the PC version, aren't you?
I was talking about a rewriting of the original version, the Amiga one.


PC is not a version, it's actually a conversion of Amiga. Renegade only miscued (or chose deliberately, for whatever reason) the resolution which then caused the ball physics to change, and accordingly, other game physics slightly changed, too.

Check:

PC version of SWOS was written as a conversion from Amiga. It can be deduced by analyzing the code, and there are even some left over strings such as "INSERT BLANK DISK IN DF0:". There are 15 memory locations (dwords) that are used as registers. Their start is at 0x3146d. These dwords correspond to Amiga's MC68000 processor registers: data registers D0-D7 and address registers A0-A7. This is not a mistake (15 locations for 16 registers) because register A7 (stack pointer) is mapped directly to Intel's esp register. This means that PC version of SWOS is using so called static emulation, where whole program is translated into host machine language and then executed. Other type of emulation is dynamic emulation, where an interpreter is used that interprets original code run-time (this is the way most emulators operate). Since SWOS is a commercial game, it was more feasibile to use the first approach. I think they did the following: first Amiga's source code (which I believe was mostly written in assembler, or some optimizing C compiler - somebody correct me if I'm wrong) was converted into C code, probably using some third party utility. Than they rewrited some heavily used routines completely in x86 assembler for speed, and rewrited non-portable routines (file handling, input handling, video) to get fully running x86 executable. Compiler used to put all this together was Watcom C - sw(o)s.exe contains whole Watcom run-time library, both 16 and 32-bit versions.


@Playa/Redhair - I'm not sure of your reservations about Kickstarter to be completely honest


It is not our reservation. Jon doesn't want Kickstarter. He talked about the legal issues with it.
You backed many projects, fine... How many projects did you start yourself?

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4 years 11 months ago #130393 by steviebwoy78
Replied by steviebwoy78 on topic Re: *** Call to Action: New Sensible Soccer Game ***
I still don't quite understand what the legal issues are you're referring to, Playa. If legality was such a massive issue, why are so many games successfully funded and published via Kickstarter? I guess it's a question for Jon, rather than yourself.

Don't give up guys! He's obviously thinking about it, so I think we need to keep showing him how much we want a new Jon Hare football game.

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4 years 11 months ago - 4 years 11 months ago #130394 by DoTa

I still don't quite understand what the legal issues are you're referring to, Playa. If legality was such a massive issue, why are so many games successfully funded and published via Kickstarter? I guess it's a question for Jon, rather than yourself.

Don't give up guys! He's obviously thinking about it, so I think we need to keep showing him how much we want a new Jon Hare football game.


I think he could see that allready. Past years were many projects for a sensi (or retrolook football game) made. But everyone were missing a good multiplayer or game itself wasnt handy. And if u see in Steam, they really need one. U pay 15€ for a holy crap retro soccer. The only one which is actually good after all these years is new star soccer.

Im just disapointed after Jon got allready two opportunities to get his Sensi in new layout and failed. I hope the next one will be the one, which deserve to be named by sensible world of soocer.

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4 years 11 months ago - 4 years 11 months ago #130396 by Playaveli

I still don't quite understand what the legal issues are you're referring to, Playa. If legality was such a massive issue, why are so many games successfully funded and published via Kickstarter? I guess it's a question for Jon, rather than yourself.

Don't give up guys! He's obviously thinking about it, so I think we need to keep showing him how much we want a new Jon Hare football game.


Very simple:
- If you announce stuff on kickstarter and make promises, you need to fulfill those. If not, people can claim money back. That is: Legal issue!
- If you announce nothing fancy (extras, posters, fan stuff etc), because you want to work it out without pressuring yourself (the opposite happened with rushed games SS06, XBLA SWOS), not enough people will back a kickstarter project.


That's it.

Jon is absolutely right in dismissing kickstarter. A "deadline" for the game to be released is the worst thing to happen.
We don't need deadlines or anything like that. We need the money (or rather: a sponsor), and time for development.

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4 years 11 months ago #130398 by steviebwoy78
Replied by steviebwoy78 on topic Re: *** Call to Action: New Sensible Soccer Game ***

Very simple:
- If you announce stuff on kickstarter and make promises, you need to fulfill those. If not, people can claim money back. That is: Legal issue!
- If you announce nothing fancy (extras, posters, fan stuff etc), because you want to work it out without pressuring yourself (the opposite happened with rushed games SS06, XBLA SWOS), not enough people will back a kickstarter project.


That's it.

Jon is absolutely right in dismissing kickstarter. A "deadline" for the game to be released is the worst thing to happen.
We don't need deadlines or anything like that. We need the money (or rather: a sponsor), and time for development.


@Playa, it's quite obvious that we don't have a sponsor. That's the thing I think we need to remember. Publishers want a product delivered in line with their expectations within a scheduled timescale. If that doesn't happen, quite often the finished game is released before it's ready - hence the myriad of post-release patches that are prevalent in games today and also hence, Sensible Soccer 2006. Working with a publisher is in many ways more demanding and problematic than working with a Kickstarter crowd.

I understand the points you've raised regarding legality, but I actually don't think that's the case - many projects and products have been released on Kickstarter that have failed to meet the scope of the project from the outset. Look at Double Fine. They released Broken Age which delivered nothing like what they'd intended but they didn't have to pay a penny back to the backers. They then released the first half of the game through Steam Early Access to fund the second half of the game's development. That's half the point about Kickstarter. It's a gamble for the supporters rather than a gamble for the developer - your comment about a developer having to pay back money if they fail to deliver is simply not true. Several projects have actually failed to deliver the product, but there's no refund offered - as I've said, it's a gamble for the backers, not the developers.

From this article ( www.engadget.com/2013/07/03/double-fine-kickstarter-debacle/ )
There is no refund available through Kickstarter, as not delivering on a product isn't a violation of Kickstarter's rules.

And from Kickstarter themselves:
www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics#Acco

I've used Kickstarter a heck of a lot so I know what I'm talking about. Most projects are delivered, but they are frequently delivered beyond the planned release date or with features missing - there's no refunds available, so no money is handed back to the backers. I can see why you think the way you do with the information you have, but you're actually misinformed. It's down to the backers to assess whether they think a project is worth risking their money for - if the project doesn't deliver, they can't get their money back.

And yet - all the above is assuming that Jon fails to deliver a football game that the public don't like, which is far from a foregone conclusion anyway.

As I've said, in the event that a "sponsor" doesn't come forward, what other option do we have?

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4 years 11 months ago - 4 years 11 months ago #130399 by Playaveli

As I've said, in the event that a "sponsor" doesn't come forward, what other option do we have?


Hope for Zlatko Karakas' win32 port of SWOS!
I have big hopes.

Why?
His work is pure quality, and he has a "SWOS brain". The multiplayer menu for PC SWOS looks like it is an original feature of the game.
(Check: www.sensiblesoccer.de/forum/index.php?topic=25566.0 )

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4 years 11 months ago - 4 years 11 months ago #130400 by Bomb

As I've said, in the event that a "sponsor" doesn't come forward, what other option do we have?


That 1) someone who knows and loves the game does a good clone or 2) modifies the existing game as good as possible (like Zlatko does ...) ;)

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4 years 11 months ago #130401 by steviebwoy78
Replied by steviebwoy78 on topic Re: *** Call to Action: New Sensible Soccer Game ***
Will Zlatko's port enable us to play the game on the Xbox One or PS4? I'm not interested in a PC-only game to be honest.

I maintain that we should not discount Kickstarter so frivolously, and I'm disappointed that this seems to have happened. It's genuinely perfect for Jon.

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