5-2-3 have just killed SWOS :)

1 year 9 months ago - 1 year 9 months ago #146173 by Zafer
Dear community,

Hope you all had a great summer, like I did as one of the lucky to join the Sensidays in Barcelona and meet many of you I knew online for 15 years!
The subject line may look a bit strange, I stole it from LIK (hope you're around and don't mind it mate:). He created this post 16,5 years ago when the custom tactic discussion first arise:  sensiblesoccer.de/forum/the-museum/1099-...ave-just-killed-swos

Just a short background:
- Currently there is rule for ASL and Sensidays that custom tactics are home player right.
- If the opponent says no in the away game, you cannot use it.
- Tactics can't be used at all in national or ISSF tournaments.
- Restriction only applies to Amiga SWOS, in PC custom tactics can be used freely.
- From 2003 to 2008, there was no limitation on Amiga either (5 out of the 19 tournaments to date)
- The rule (compromise of 50/50) was created in 2008 following many heated discussions, to bring peace to the community.
- You can find some of them below, which likely brings the technicalities of the subject to light from every possible perspective:

Why is Zafer (aka Ejder-Z) opening this controversial subject again? Because he didn't win a single ASL1 to date but has a killer tactic that can allow him? Not really, I don't think that would be enough.

Let's keep reminding ourselves: It's the player that plays, not the tactic. It's the passion that wins a 3 min game, nothing else. 

I open this subject because I think this community is all for freedom and creativity.

Few facts:
- ASL1 one had 5 champions since November 2019: Nestor, Yashalkok, Bobbie, Bomb and Djowger.
- It had only 2 champions since Summer 2021: Nestor and Yashalkok.
- Both play 5-2-3 hence my sarcasm around this tactic, I have nothing else against it :)
- Blazej won 7 of the last 10 Sensidays. He says if tactics were 100% allowed, that's "not enough but it could be more close" :D
- It's the player that plays, not the tactic. My dear friends well deserved these titles and they'd still win if there was no tactic rule.

How could removing the rule help?
It could help the challengers to the titles explore the tactic route, as one new way to play even better.
- Dear LIK in the forum link above said custom tactic kills creativity because it allows one to score same goal over and over. It may be true.
- Others opposed saying a contrary tactic could allow beat the former tactic, increasing creativity. May be true.
- Some said it is in fact the custom tactic that prevents same goals. May also be true.
- I thought 5-2-3 kills creativity when I rejoined after 15 years and saw most playing it. May or may not be true. Probably not :)

After all these are all our subjective opinions and we can never agree on these. Fact is our lovely old game has many features, why not embrace it to the fullest?

Numerous players told me the game is not fun because I score L goals, they never attempted them to be considered invalid in their home games.
I like icy pitch but with random you get that deep green pitch which makes me feel like my players are stuck in grass. I never thought of proposing a rule change.

How about those who don't have time, technical skills or willingness to make a tactic?
We are allowed to use any tactic in the save disk, and they are excellent.
I know at least 2 great players used mine in ASL games which is an honor.

What are you proposing?
I talked to the current ASL1 players and asked "Would you quit ASL if the tactic rule was lifted?"
Some said they won't, some said may be and some said they don't know. Some said they don't like tactic but if allowed they will adapt and make a tactic if they find they need it.

Only two players in ASL1 prefer custom tactics today, probably none in ASL2. If we polled now, the decision is likely to stay the same because people either don't know about the tactic or don't like it because it doesn't provide an advantage, in fact it's a disadvantage vs those who take advantage.

My proposal is to test for a month and experience, to see if we can survive without the rule.
If we can be tolerate the freedom to have a uniform rule for PC and Amiga which can potentially open the way to offline as well.

Again either way no heartfeelings, I'll love my SWOS friends just the same if they keep telling me "no tacticzku" and make me call the bench :)

All the best to all of you,

Last edit: 1 year 9 months ago by Zafer. Reason: correction
The following user(s) said Thank You: Nestoroide

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1 year 9 months ago - 1 year 9 months ago #146174 by gatifun
Great post Zafer! Amazingly exposed and clear.
I've been thinking several days after knowing Zafer's ideas.

In my humble opinion, tactics are part of the game and not allowing them, or the home rule, sounds a bit as cutting someone's way to play. Is using tactics an optional posibility? yes, but that doesn't mean to me to make it as strange to game to not to allowing it.
If it is more favourable for people who are able to train and spend time with them, well, this is the same as head combos, amazing goals or passing speed, it is part of the game that the more you play, the more you win.

Then, freedom to use it could be a good option. I respect past decisions, but it is not really hard to me to if community agreement makes newer changes and develop the rivality and playability.

OF COURSE, I'd like to read another opinions too :)

Thanks Zafer for keep these kind of things up!
Last edit: 1 year 9 months ago by gatifun.
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1 year 9 months ago #146177 by Nestoroide
Have to say, I don't mind that rule, for me formation is not important, just is important to have fun (and I'll do it anyway :P )

but your point is very interesting Zafer! Thanks for the post :)
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1 year 9 months ago - 1 year 9 months ago #146178 by thd79
I have only been playing SWOS online for 2 years or so, and it seems there has been a lot of discussion and controversy about this topic in the past. This led to the current compromise online where custom tactics are only allowed for one leg of a two leg tie, unless both players want custom tactics for both. This is also the situation for Amiga Sensi days.

As I don't have experience of playing in the era when custom tactics were allowed without restriction, I feel I can't really comment on it with any knowledge. I get the impression that in the past, it became the case that in order to compete at a good level, it was necesary to use custom tactics. On a purely personal level, I suppose I would find this a little annoying, as I play SWOS for the fun of it, and making tactics is not fun for me, so I don't think I would ever spend time to create a custom tactic. But that's just me, I don't have a philosophical problem with it. I get the impression that everyone more or less converged on the same custom tactic anyway!

I also see that in the past there have been arguments regarding people using tactics created by other people. It seems some people who had spent time to create their own tactic were not happy that others couuld just start using that tactic without having done any of the work themselves. It's quite clear to me that this is just something that happens and people would need to live with it.

So I have always been very happy with how things are, and I don't feel any need to change them. Tactics are so rare now (I think only 1/2 players use them), that I'm not even sure if allowing them freely would change much at all, unless the 1/2 tactic players start dominating.

So I don't think anything needs changing. But if it did change, that would be fine with me!
Last edit: 1 year 9 months ago by thd79.
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1 year 9 months ago #146179 by spectrando77
Why are custom tactics home player right only? Anybody should be able to play any tactic they like, it’s a swos feature since the 90s. If opponent can ask you not to play custom, you should have the right to ask them not to play their favorite tactic.
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1 year 9 months ago #146180 by thd79
Because I guess in the past the community decided this was the best compromise to keep the most number of people happy.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Zafer

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1 year 9 months ago - 1 year 9 months ago #146181 by Zafer
Some good developments already:

We may have two "premier" leagues allowing custom tactics freely in September: UK Premier and the brand new Amiga Premier League (APL): www.sensiblesoccer.de/?option=com_tourna...w=tournament&id=5936

APL has some pre-conditions as it comes with Julio's (crom) tagline at the Sensidays cup ceremony: It's for the best of the best :) But please join if you qualify.

These two testing grounds should help find out if we can live with tactics and still enjoy or enjoy even more this excellent game!
Last edit: 1 year 9 months ago by Zafer.

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1 year 9 months ago #146182 by thd79
I'm not sure about the UK one yet - I've asked the question, waiting for feedback from the guys. If there's a strong response against, then we won't run with it. We only have 7 players at the moment, don't want to lose more...
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1 year 9 months ago - 1 year 9 months ago #146183 by crom1
Good respecting your argument and after having played many games against players who play Custom, yashal, bomb, yourself, etc. my opinion is the same:

The custom is a tactic to be well locked up with 11 players behind that do not leave any kind of gap, they become tedious matches, where the one who has the most inspired day in a long ball wins, or is lucky enough to transfer some player.

For me, playing custom is boring, soporific, and I think that if we all end up playing custom at 100%, they will end up being matches with very few goals. the goals will come because a player has a spectacular day and plays to the millimeter. Let's remember that with custom the teams both attack with many players, as well as retreat all at once, turning the matches into battles of almost 18 players in the area. Is this being able to play a normal match?

The issue of 523 and that false legend. Do you think that a player with 523 has an advantage? NO. I think certain players (yashal , thd , crom) take it to the extreme of getting the most out of it. I still think that Julen takes the 352 to the extreme, being a tactic that drowns Italy with Barcelona. Just as I think that Assura takes 433 to the extreme with Real Madrid. Just as I think that Quarenzo takes 442 to the extreme, I think I remember. Special mention to players who took the 424 to the extreme like Cagonto or schulle.

In the end, this game is based on knowing how to switch with your players in time and stop pressing or pressing certain keys at the right time (milliseconds)

It is based on knowing how to give passes with effect to get players out of position

It is based on knowing how to score goals with the curve when you know that they are covering that pass and you wait for the perfect frame to release the ball

it is based on knowing that playing for example with ravanelli against certain types of defense can better bring out the central defenders of the opposing team

It is based on throwing yourself with a player even if he is 2 meters from the ball so that another player is activated and you go better to the pressure

It is based on knowing what each of your opponents is playing and adapting to them with 100% concentration because you know that they are so good that they do not fail as long as you leave 1 cm.

yashal long ball and perfect control, cinek spectacular goals from the wings, quarenzo a lot of short passes with great precision and great finishing, nestor is good in all long, short, assura with goals to the far post with curve, etc.

Now, when you play with a custom everything that I expose above falls like a house of cards. You put me 11 guys running back and forth and there is 0 space to play because you always have 3 guys glued to you? Well, it only remains to hang balls like crazy and get bored like an oyster.

you can put a low-medium level player and put on a custom and take 80 minutes to score a goal just by bringing together players in the area.

In short, I don't like customs; but when I have to play them , there is no problem , I play them and I will get used to them . But I think that the customs more than beautify the game , make it ugly and tedious . MY OPINION.
Last edit: 1 year 9 months ago by crom1.

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1 year 9 months ago #146184 by yashalkok
Hello everybody
In my opinion the current rules on custom tactics are well balanced. They meet those who love custom tactics as well as those who can't stand them. I find myself in what he wrote Thd, like him I do not feel the desire or need to change, but at the same time if the majority of the community wants to try to change, so be it. Gatifun is also right when he says that the various Combos must also be tried in training, could the same apply to custom tactics? The basis of my thinking, however, is that they are unbalanced tactics for online gaming and that they could favor flattening in the game.

My personal experience I have never tried to create a custom tactic, I use a custom tactic against some opponents in my home matches and I have often been told that I have an advantage in doing so in terms of defensive and offensive concreteness. In my turn, when I know that my opponent is strong with the custom, my decision is not to use it in home matches. In practice, my current choice is purely strategic  . But in any case I see people who will never use it and people who love it. This is why for me the current rule is balanced.

But mine is a personal and limited experience, I am ready to adapt in the event of a change of rule. Here we also speak of choice is a fair reasoning and freedom. For me we are already at a point of balance, but I could be wrong.

Basically every regulation is fair if it is the same applied to everyone. There may also be a trial or months in a year when this rule or other special rules apply. I like playing it would be a different challenge. However, I'm not sure if the game quality would improve and I'm not sure I like it something new that it would do for the majority of users.

Probably after a period of adaptation many will look for the most effective custom tactic or many will begin to use that of the current champion. But I agree  with  mate Zafer (thank you for beginning the topic) that every single player makes quality and sometimes luck, you can all use the same tactic but each of us has a different style. This also applies to the classic 523. It is now the most used tactic, I myself started using it when I saw champions years and years ago. But I have never learned to do the things that some people do on the pitch and each of us has his own different style. It is not a Killer tactic as it is not and no custom tactic will ever be. Each tactic has its strong and weak points!

To summarize what I have said, I am open to change even if I am not convinced that it is good for the community
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